God on Trial | Daniel Six Ten’s War on Forgiveness | Life Upside Down

Church hurt. False prophets. The problem of evil. What justice really looks like. And what it actually means to call yourself a Christian. This episode covers it all.

In this episode of the Life Upside Down Podcast, Ryan and Karina Martinez sit down with Daniel, known online as @danielsixten, a Christian influencer who works as a lawyer by day and teaches apologetics, highlights religious freedom, and raises awareness about Christian persecution around the world.

This conversation goes deep. Daniel shares his personal journey of learning what it truly means to submit to God and live a life of forgiveness. Not the kind of forgiveness that sounds good in a sermon but the kind that costs you something. The kind that transforms your heart from the inside out. Because that's what real faith does. It doesn't just change your Sunday morning. It changes who you are when nobody's watching.

Ryan, Karina, and Daniel tackle some of the hardest questions believers and non-believers wrestle with:

What do you do when the church is the thing that hurt you?
How do you identify false prophets and protect yourself from bad teaching?
If God is good, why does He allow so much evil in the world?
What does biblical justice actually look like versus what the world calls justice?
What does 1 Kings 13 teach us about obedience, deception, and staying true to God's word?

Daniel brings a unique perspective to these conversations because he lives in two worlds. In the courtroom, he deals with justice as the law defines it. In his faith, he understands justice as God defines it. That intersection creates some of the most thought-provoking moments in this episode.

This isn't a surface-level conversation. This is the kind of episode you listen to twice. Once to hear it and once to sit with it.

If you've ever been hurt by a church, questioned whether your faith is real, wondered how God could allow suffering, or needed to understand what true forgiveness looks like, this episode was made for you.

"Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you." James 4:7-8

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

Follow @danielsixten:
YouTube: @danielsixten
TikTok: @danielsixten
Instagram: @danielsix.ten




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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I was a fan, but I was not a Christian. Everyone says, you know, God wants a relationship with you. If you really want that with me, tell me what I gotta do. I just felt like the Lord said, let my people go. My sister was raped, right? By someone that I really, really cared about. But she says, I don't know why, but I need to tell you this. And I know that the Holy Spirit is convicting me to tell you this. And I'm driving and I'm like, okay, like, what is it? You need to forgive him. That's what she said. She said, you need to forgive him and called him by name. If Jesus was able to forgive me, man, he can forgive anybody.

SPEAKER_07 0:50

Daniel, we're here on Life Upside Down. It is so incredible to have you. Dude, thanks for having me. To just dive into some of your story and just talk about God and the Bible. Come on. I've been so intrigued. We've been so blessed to just get to know your family, get to know your story. And so Daniel Co., you and your wife Nianne have a beautiful little baby. So I want to I want you to start there. Tell us about your family. And then we'll just kind of roll it from the back.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Yeah, thank you so much. Like y'all are some of my best friends, and I'm so glad. I'm so proud of what you guys got going on here. And I'm honored to even be here today on this. Like, this is so cool. This we say this all the time, but I really feel like what God is doing here is just so alive. It's like tangible almost, right? Um, so yeah, my wife is my better half. She is awesome. Um, I call her my Azir because that's what it, that's what it says in the Bible. Like in Genesis, right? When they're talking about when Adam was created and Eve was given to her to him, it was called He would be your She will be your Azir. And it's so interesting because she is my Azir. And what the word Azir means is she is your rear guard, your elite rear guard, your helpmate, the one that guards you. God uses himself and he he calls himself an Azir for Israel, saying, I will be your elite rear guard. So my wife, she's awesome. This is a bigger intro to her, but she is there you go, she is so cool. And she's beautiful. She's oh, she's dropped. He is dropped by gorgeous. Karina's got a little girl crush on her.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

A little girl crush on her.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

No, that's awesome. I appreciate it. No, yeah, she's awesome. Yeah, her name's Nien. And then we just had a little baby daughter named Yuna. Yeah. She's so cute.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

She's so cute. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Yeah. We named her, like, we tried to. I'm so bad at pronouncing Hebrew, but I know like in Hebrew, like dove is like Yona. So we're like, oh, we're gonna name her like Yuna. You know?

SPEAKER_00 2:42

You know how your wife told me her? Because like the first time I talked to her, I go, Your baby's so cute. What's her name? And she's like, you know how like Spanish, the moon is Luna? It's Yuna with the Y. And I'm like, oh, and it's stuck on me, oh Luna, Yuna. And so I love how she like she just connected, like, oh, Spanish, you know. She always has these taglines.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

She's like, My name's Nian, like your knee, Ann. And I'm like, oh, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_07 3:06

Yeah. That is so funny. She's so cute. So, Daniel, um just kind of tell us about where you're at right now in your life and kind of what you do, and then just a little bit about where you came from.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Yeah. So right now I am a special victim's counsel with the Air Force, which means I'm a Jag. All that to be said is I'm a lawyer. I'm a lawyer, I'm a criminal justice lawyer, and I've dealt with victims law. I've dealt with um just all types of criminal law, mainly specializing on the prosecution side.

SPEAKER_07 3:35

Yeah. Man, do you have uh some wild stories? I I just know lawyer stuff from like, you know, SVU and all of those things. Is that is that accurate at all?

SPEAKER_02 3:47

Man, I wish I could say it was. Um it's a lot more paperwork than that. But I I will say I never like to knock those TV shows because I became a lawyer because of the show Suits. Have you guys heard of that show?

SPEAKER_07 4:01

No, I haven't.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

That show is literally why I became a lawyer. Wow. So I was about to drop out of college and I just wasn't going to school. And my dean emailed me and was like, hey, so you have not been attending anything. Like you don't have you have to pick a major, you have to pick something. And I had just been binging uh suits, and I was like, Well, I guess I'll be a lawyer, you know? That's how it started. But then God had plans.

SPEAKER_07 4:25

And um well, it's funny because part of my story is a lot less legit. I went to community college to for criminal justice because I watched the show cops all the time. Yeah, see, and my parents were like, you either need to go to school or get a job. And so I was like, I guess I'll go to my community college. I'll be a cop. And then I found there was a lot more paperwork and other stuff. Yeah. Okay, never mind.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Yeah. So to answer your question, I guess like, no, it's not always like law and order, especially because law and order, you it's like the whole justice system is done in 30 minutes, and you feel like, oh yeah, if you feel so good, you're like, yeah, the bad guys got locked away. What's really interesting is when I got into the role and I was serving as a prosecutor, I was the chief of military justice, I learned that there's no such thing as, oh, this guy is black and white, a bad guy. And that was really hard to understand. And I think that's really hard for a lot of people to understand. That when the first person that I was prosecuting, I saw myself. And I said, Oh, that's like I it was it was for a split second, and it was actually really crazy, but I felt like I was the one being prosecuted. And it was a very interesting, surreal experience. And when we um when we eventually found him guilty, right? Like af at the end, it was profound because I thought he was gonna cry and break down in tears, but he actually thanked the judge. Wow. And he said, Thank you for catching me. Thank you. Now I have the freedom to live a life without a lie. And I'll never forget that.

SPEAKER_08 5:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

So I so I I do think there's no such thing as like, you know, everyone's like, oh yeah, justice is perfect. That's you know, like human justice is never perfect.

SPEAKER_07 6:01

Yeah. And that's tough. Um, it actually makes me think of I was watching one of those shows one time, and you think that it's always supposed to end with like um a bow and the guy's supposed to get caught. And this specifically was a really messed up episode, and it was about someone abusing kids. And at the end of the episode, he gets away.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 6:22

And it ends like that. And I remember this like sick feeling in my stomach, but that's the reality of our world.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

That is the reality. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 6:31

And I know that's kind of part of your story, is like wrestling through some of that. You know what I mean? And dealing with some of that inside of yourself of like, why do bad things happen, you know? So I don't know if you want to get into that.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

If you have anything else you want to add, that's really good. I mean, that reminds me of um, so I had this case where I was representing a victim, right? And she's a mother and horrible things. She faced the worst of atrocities. And at the end of the court, right, they're gonna announce this person guilty or not, right? Her husband, the one that's been doing terrible things to her. Like, and as a lawyer, you see all the evidence. You spent years, like you spent like the whole, I spent the whole year just reading her case file, getting to know her, getting to know her kids, this whole thing. And so you get really attached emotionally. Um, and then I remember at the end of the court where they're just about to announce him guilty or not, right? I lean over to my client and I'm like, hey, if they announce him not guilty, we can kind of just sneak through the back so you don't have to sit and watch them as they celebrate or or do any of that, right? And I'll never forget this moment because it was so profound. Um she didn't respond to me. She heard me, she's just like saying straight, because I mean it's a very intense situation. But the judge said, Okay, not guilty. And my heart sank, right? And so I I whispered to my client, I said, Hey, um we can sneak through the back now. Like, I you know, I I can't even imagine what you're going through. If you want to sneak through the back, we can talk about this later. And she's just stayed planted. And at first I thought she was having like one of those uh fight or flight moments where you just kind of freeze, and she said, and but I and I saw her hand trembling, and she was like, No, I need to stay here because I want my kids to know that I did not run even at the last second, you know, even when the world found him not guilty. I know that God knows what happened to me. And she said that, and I was I was so moved. And see, these are the bows that ending to the episodes that people don't always see, but God sees. And I feel so humbled that I get to be in a position where I get a glimpse of God's justice and I get to see that. Um, but it doesn't always look like you know, the justice that we think as humans, you know, oh, it's a perfect bow. It doesn't always look like that.

SPEAKER_07 8:54

Yeah.

unknown 8:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 8:55

And I think it's so interesting that you are in your position as you think of prosecuting. Um, you know, we were talking about your story. And if you want to get into the thing that you really had to struggle through in finding forgiveness for something you know, that happened that was close to you.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Yeah, yeah, I know. Um, yeah. So I have always people ask me, like, when did you become Christian? I was baptized last year. So I consider myself a very baby Christian.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

That's crazy. What? Because you're baptized last year, April 26th. I think.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

I don't know what you mean, but up there, but um Wow. Yeah, the Lord is so good. Yeah, I was baptized last year. I was a fan of Christianity my entire life.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

I was a fan, but I was not a Christian. Um, I even spent a portion of my life persecuting Christians, and that's why I feel such a tug at like shining a light on the persecuted church. But yeah, I spent a lot of time like intellectually harassing other Christians and just being like, you don't know what you're talking about, you don't know what you believe in. I didn't. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_07 9:59

But were you a fan at that time?

SPEAKER_02 10:00

I was I was a fan of like the Christian faith, but it's almost like a it's almost like a domestic abuse relationship, a domestic violence relationship. In a domestic violence relationship, it's really twisted. And it's it's usually like one person is such a fan of the other one that when they don't feel that same reciprocation, they start hurting them. And it's it's terrible and it's twisted. But for me, that's kind of how I felt with Christianity. Like I really was angry. I was like, I don't see God moving, I don't understand justice of God. Like, how can there be so much evil in the world if there's this good God? And I, you know, theologically and logically came to the conclusion that God is real, but I don't know if I like Him. Yeah. And that's how I that's how I spent a lot of my life. Um, and I would, when people asked me, I'd be like, yeah, I'm Christian, but I didn't know what that actually meant until it came to what forgiveness meant. Um and so it happened about, you know, so April 27th is when I got baptized. So early last year is when this happened. Um and I remember I remember kneeling down at the altar because they do those altar calls at church, and I remember being like, you know what, like I really want this to be real. Like I really want to understand who you are, God. And so if you are real, and um if you really want a relationship with me, like everyone says, you know, God wants a relationship with you. If you really want that with me, tell me what I gotta do. What is holding me back? Because I know that it's something that I'm doing or not doing that's holding me back. And this was such a crazy experience. I just felt like the Lord said, Let my people go. And I'm like, I don't at the time I was like, I have no idea what that means. Wow. I was like, maybe I was like, I don't remember the last time I watched Prince of Egypt, but like all I heard was let my people go. And I was like, I don't know what that means. Um did you have the context of Pharaoh? Did you understand that part of it? Yeah, sorry, going back, like as a Christian fan, I knew theologically a lot about Christianity. I had read the Bible. Um, I interesting, I found it fascinating. You know, I found it absolutely fascinating, but I didn't submit to God as Lord of my life. Um so yeah, at the time, so I'm kneeling at the altar and I'm like, and I I feel like I hear God actually say, Let my people go. And I had no idea what that meant. And then later that day, I get a call from someone, one of my disciples that I was discipling. It's crazy because I was trying to disciple people, but I myself didn't even know who I myself wasn't even submitting to God, right? But he calls me and he's asking me about forgiveness. And he says, Hey, like, what does forgiveness mean? Because he was struggling on forgiving someone that had wronged him. And he was saying, like, um, I really is forgiveness if is forgiven, is forgiveness tolerance, is what he was saying. Like, is it enough that I'm just tolerating that this guy's existing? Is that good enough? Like, and he was he was looking to me to give him that warm fuzzy of like, yeah, dude, you're good. Like, yeah, I mean, you know, you can just ignore him, right? Yeah. But that's just not what it says scripturally. And we see in Matthew chapter 18, it talks about forgiveness. And it talks about what happens when um someone wrongs you and how you should act. It says, yeah, Matthew 18, it says you should pull them aside, you should talk to them one-on-one. If that doesn't work and they don't listen, then you should bring more witnesses, talk about it. Then the church, and then it goes on and on and on. But if that person still does not repent for their sins, what do you do? At the end, it says you treat them like a tax collector. And I always took that at the beginning to understand it as, oh, then you just throw them away and you ignore them and you just tolerate them. That's what I thought that chapter meant. But then you realize who wrote Matthew, chapter 18? Matthew wrote it. Matthew was a tax collector. How did Jesus treat the tax collector? How did Jesus treat Matthew? And you gotta imagine, like, all the disciples are sitting here, you know, listening to this teaching by Jesus, and he says you treat them like a tax collector, they must have all been like staring at Matthew and being like, bro, you're a tax collector. Like that's crazy. The reality I learned was even if they reject you, even if they don't apologize and you don't see that justice that we were talking about, you still love them. You still love them. You love them like Christ loved them. Because Christ died for you even before you knew him, right? Like and so what I in that moment I'm talking to him and I said, like, why are you gatekeeping the cross? Like, don't you think that the blood of Jesus is enough to heal even your worst enemy? Who are you to say that you know he shouldn't be forgiven? Who are you to say that he can't be reconciled? You know? So I believe scripturally that forgiveness is not tolerance. You know? And and I think there's a difference between, and I know I'm I'm getting like super all into the weeds here, but I I think there's a there's there's a big difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. Reconciliation is let's pretend like nothing ever happened and let's just be best friends tomorrow, like you hurt me, and well, I'll just pretend.

SPEAKER_07 15:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

That's just jumping straight to reconciliation. Forgiveness is offering a real, genuine pathway to reconciliation. You still have to repent, you still have to do all this, but you're offering to walk that journey with them. And you're saying you're not too far gone. Jesus still loves you, and there is a way back home.

SPEAKER_07 15:39

And that's really hard. There's like, it's very complicated, like you're talking about because then you all it's also not just like, oh, blind trust now. Like, yeah, you know, when when something happens, when someone hurts you or you hurt someone, there's real work to be done to reconcile, like you're saying, and and it's a process, but it also doesn't just mean like, okay, well, I'll just trust you with everything again and just open up myself fully to you. So it is, it's messy. And that's the thing. The Bible talks about these concepts that are messy, not black and white, like we were talking about earlier. You know what I mean? And and I think that's what I just love about this walk of faith. It's also important to be doing it with other believers to talk through, walk through, understand, just like you were doing with that.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

No, yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, I'm talking to him, and and it's exact it's a hard concept to understand because I didn't understand it. And I realized in that moment as I'm talking to him, whoa. You know, whenever you're teaching someone, and then sometimes you're like, well, that was actually for me and not for him. Uh-huh. I felt like the Lord used that opportunity to say, no, that lesson was for you because there was unforgiveness in my life. And again, I felt like the Lord say it so loudly, like, let my people go.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Is it something you knew you were wrestling with, or something like that was consciously like back in your mind that you had to dig out?

SPEAKER_02 16:57

Or did you know you were just kind of like, I think it was such so it was such a traumatic thing that happened in my life that I I I probably was suppressing it. Okay. But in the back of my mind, I always knew it was something that I had to deal with. Okay. So what happened was my sister was raped, right? Um, by someone that I really, really cared about. Someone that I really took under my wing as like as a little brother. Like I really, really looked out for him. And we it got to the point where, man, like I knew his mom, I knew his dad, you know, I grew up with him, right? And when people would bully him, I stood up for him and I loved him. And and to then one day come home and hear that she had been raped by this person, it it broke me. And it it like created so much anger within me that I thought, okay, well, I'm just gonna the fact that I'm letting him live and walk, that is forgiveness. That's what I thought. I was like, I am forgiving him because I'm allowing him to have breath in his lungs. I thought that was forgiveness. But in that moment, as I'm talking to my friend on the phone and I'm telling him about Matthew 18, I'm realizing that is not real forgiveness. That is not real forgiveness. And um, yeah, man, that was, and I felt like the Lord was saying, let my people go. So I guess like I I should pause the story there and tell you kind of like what actually happened. I realized I didn't really tell you like what actually happened to my sister and how that impacts me because you're right, like it was something that was on the back of my mind and fundamentally changed me. So um, yeah, like I come back from college, um, and I just, you know, I'm I'm in law school and I'm applying to join the Air Force Jag Corps. And that's like, it's a very prestigious program. I think at the time there was a stat that only like 4% of lawyers got into the Jag Corps. So I was like, Lord, I really felt called, and I wasn't even Christian at the time, but I just really felt like God had a plan for me to be a JAG. And so I was like, I really hope that this is a thing. And, you know, it's my first year in law school. I'm a 1L. And I remember coming home and I got the letter that said, You've been accepted. Like you will have a job after law school as a JAG, as a one L. And I was so excited. And I come home and I and and I'm like so excited to tell my parents and my family and my my uh fiance at the time and my sister. And I say, guys, like I just got into the JAG Corps, and they're just like really quiet. And I'm like, what are you guys not happy? Like, what's going on? And then um I remember um my my my wife like took away my firearm because I used to carry a firearm with me everywhere, and she was like, Hey, like, I need to hold on to this, and you need to talk to your sister.

SPEAKER_07 19:57

Oh my!

SPEAKER_02 19:58

And so my sister's like, Hey, um in Korean, we she calls me Opa, which means older brother. She's like, Hey, Opa, like, can we go for a drive real quick? And I'm like really confused as to what's happening at this point. Um, because I just heard my little sister, she's my little sister, she's five years younger than me, and she's one of the strongest women I know. So I'm driving and I'm like, Yeah, what's going on? You know, and she's like, Hey, you remember um this guy, and I'm not gonna say his name on this show just because out of respect, right? Um, but he says, Hey, she says, Hey, this person that you know um that you literally had dinner with a week ago, yeah, he raped me when I was a minor. And I was just so shocked. And it it it cut me to my core, and I just felt this rage take over, you know? And uh before she told me that, she said, I need you to promise something, I need you to make an oath to God. And I was like, All right, like this is super like I've never my sister is so like silly. I never thought she would. I was it was such a weird demeanor, right? And I said, Yeah, like okay. She said, No matter what I tell you next, like you are not allowed to hurt this person. And and so then she told me, like, hey, that person raped me not just once, but multiple times when I was a kid. And it cut me to my core, and that hatred just festered and grew. And um, yeah, I didn't even know what this verse meant at the time, but I got it tattooed on my spine because I just I needed to feel something. So I just went to the tattoo shop and I said, I want this like on the my spine and I need you to dig in. And I just at the time, like I actually didn't even feel it because I was so mad. Wow. Yeah, I was just so mad. I felt like I felt like I didn't I couldn't feel anything. Like I literally just couldn't feel, you know. And the verse I got was Um Paul was saying, For I'm an ambassador in chains, pray for me, also, right? And so I felt like I was in chains, and I felt like I was shackled. It's ironic because um Paul was not preaching about the same thing that I'm talking about now. But um yeah, I I really felt like I was shackled and I felt so mad at him. I wanted to do something, I wanted to hurt him. Like I absolutely did, like who wouldn't, right? And I felt like because I made an oath to this God that I did believe in, but I didn't submit to, that I wasn't allowed to hurt him. And I was so mad and I kept questioning why? Why is there so much evil in this world? If you're such a good God, what's going on? Like, make that make sense to me. Um, so, anyways, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_07 22:55

I just wanted to say, like, what happened to your sister, it's it just breaks my heart because so many people go through that kind of stuff, yeah. Or other stuff. Like, you know, I have parts of my story that I won't get into, but things that happened when I was a kid, you know, and um, you know, it's just like it's out there and it's it's everywhere. I remember I was in a room full of 10 guys one time, and I was sharing some stuff that happened when I was younger, and like more than half the room was like, yeah, that happened to me too. Yeah. And it's, you know, we were talking a little bit about this earlier, but it's like the real raw trauma that is happening everywhere all around the world, but we're afraid to talk about it. Right. We bottle it up. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

I want to say something too. Um, I just find it so fascinating how like you have this bl like God's moving, you have this blessing, like this blessing's coming. The fact that you got into law school, yeah, and then the enemy always already, he already acted, but his intention was to like completely because here's the thing you're going to law school to fight for law and justice, and you you were in this position where you could have easily gone like gone into this for God and to help people with a good heart, but the enemy's intention was to just like anger you and like who is God, anyways?

SPEAKER_06 24:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Look how evil he is. Look at, and then you could have gone into law school with this wicked, angry heart.

SPEAKER_03 24:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

And then you would have just been adding on to the corrupt, right? Corruptness in in law or whatever, you know what I mean, in that area. But you were in this very pivotal moment where you could have gone this way and the enemy could have used you.

SPEAKER_05 24:43

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Or you could have like surrendered, not lean on your own feelings, not lean on your own understanding, and been like, God, you know, I'm gonna trust you. Yeah. Even though it doesn't make sense, even though physically I don't want to, I'm gonna surrender everything to you and trust you. And that's faith.

SPEAKER_07 25:04

That's a truth. Yeah. Where would you say you went with that in mind? Would you say you went this way or that way in terms of like so it sounds like you were angry?

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Yeah, I was furious with God. Um, I was furious with God, I was furious with everybody. You know, and I was just yeah, I was really mad at at the guy, obviously, that did this. And um I remember like just this blind rage just like overtaking my body, and I I wanted to I wanted to do terrible things to this person, you know. This was my little sister, this is the one person that I felt like I was supposed to protect, and I just failed, you know. Um and then at that time, I was actually uh a youth pastor at this church. Um and and it was crazy because the head pastor was mentoring me at the time, and the head pastor was like, Hey, this is apparently everybody knew about this. Apparently, everybody um knew about this assault that happened on my sister, except for me, because they knew that the rage that I could have and they were afraid of what I could do or what I would do. So even my and that's why I credit my wife so much because she's she's so strong. She wanted to wait to tell me until my sister was ready to tell me. And so they knew for about a year before I knew. Yeah. Um, and so when my sister finally told me, she told me, and she's like, I feel like I need to tell you this now so that you can heal because I have already healed from this. And so I'm thinking in my head, like, heal, I just got wounded, you know. And I'm like, and I'm making it all about me. And I'm mad and I'm angry. And that's what we do with justice sometimes. We put ourselves in the judge's seat and we say, Well, I've been hurt. You know how ridiculous that sounds, you know. Um so, anyways, fast forward. Um, my head pastor is like, well, we gotta do, you know, we gotta call this person out and we gotta protect the church. And, you know, there's a whole police investigation that's launched, this whole thing, and basically the entire church splits. And, you know. Was this person in the church? Yes. Whoever so people, yeah, church hurt. Yeah. That kind of, you know.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

So you're in the church and he's in the church. You both have a role.

SPEAKER_07 27:28

We're both in the same church, yeah. Okay, and that, yeah, I mean, that's a hot topic right now. Yeah. Obviously, that's kind of popping off in you know, the charismatic world with just the Bethel movement, with just church hurt, and you know, I don't know if you want to if you want to keep going on your story.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

No, we can we can talk about it. I mean, I mean, yeah, absolutely. Like church hurt, like, people will hurt you, you know? People will hurt you. That's the key. Um, man, it reminds me um 1 Kings chapter 13. This that chapter like really strikes me. So, this chapter, it talks about this man who's named a man of God. The Bible doesn't even say his name, they just call him a man of God, right? What a cool title to have, right? And so this man of God is called by God to go and call out this king and all the wickedness in the world. So he goes and he calls out this king and says, What you're doing here is wrong. Like basically, this king is sacrificing and doing all these crazy terrible things to other gods. And he's like sacrificing all these, you know, all of these terrible things, and like children and everything, right? Like doing all this pagan worship, right? And the man of God goes and he says, basically, like you're doing you're doing something wrong. And God is mad, right? That king points his arm out and points at him and says, like, go seize him, right? His arm like stiffens and it says it like dries up to the point where he can't even retract it, like it's stuck like that. So interesting. Like when we harden our heart in sin and anger, like we often get stuck in that motion and nothing can pull us back. And what does this king do? He's been worshiping other gods. He doesn't call out to them to save him, he calls to the man of God who he just tried to sentence to death, and he says, Hey, help me, help me. And so the man of God heals him, right? And then the king says, Whoa, that's you know, this is amazing. Like, come come over and dine with me and I'll feed you. Well, the man of God, before he went on his mission, was given one order from God, and that is, hey, do these things, but do not eat in the land. That's the one thing I'm telling you to do. Do not eat or drink in this land. And so the man of God says, Hey, sorry, I cannot eat with you. I will not eat with you, um, because God told me not to. And so he goes the other way, right? Now, this is where it gets really interesting, and this is where I think it ties right into church hurt because people think that the Bible doesn't talk about church hurt. People think that um Christians can't hurt you. That's such a lie. The Bible equips you for situations like what we're seeing today, right? So in 1 Kings 13, this man of God then goes and he meets an old prophet. Now he's called an old prophet. He also doesn't have a name, but he's called an old prophet, which means at one point he was also a man of God, right? This old prophet had heard about how this man of God called out the king, and so he wanted some of that fame, you know? So he saddles up his donkey and he meets the man of God on the road and he says, Hey, come eat with me. You know, I'm a prophet, like come eat with me. Like, you know, we're, you know, cut from the same cloth. Like, come eat with me. Uh uh, yeah, you look hungry, let's go eat. The man of God says, No, the Lord told me I'm not allowed to eat here, right? But then the old prophet says, It says he lies and he makes up a vision. And the and this, yeah, this old prophet says, Oh, I actually also just got a vision, and it's um an angel came and told me, Hey, you can come eat with me, and it's okay. And trust me, I'm a prophet. So he's got the church resume, he's got the leadership, the experience, he's well known, and all of this. And this man of God, instead of checking with the Lord and checking, hey, is this scriptural? Is this correct? He goes and he eats with him. And then as they're eating, the Lord like basically possesses this old prophet, speaks through him and says, Like, what have you done? Like, because you did this, like, there will be a punishment. And then right as soon as that man of God leaves the house, he's killed. And he's yeah, and then there's a lion and a donkey that stands beside him. And that story in 1 Kings 13, what that's capturing is hey, there will be people that use God's name. And maybe they're they think they're just telling a white lie. Like maybe that old prophet really thought, hey, this man guy looks really hungry, and maybe I just gotta tell a little white lie. Maybe I'll make up a false vision or false prophecy, because I think I'm really helping, you know? There will be people that twist scripture, that twist God's name, and sell Jesus just so that they can take advantage, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:28

Or there's like wolf, um, wolf's disguised in sheep's clothing a lot on the pulpit. And I think we've encountered some of that. A lot of false prophets are everywhere. But I think people just don't use their discernment and the Holy Spirit like they're supposed to. We just kind of easily trust anyone who says, I'm a Christian or I'm I'm a pastor, but we forget like that doesn't make you anything different. You're like, you're still human, you're still in the flesh, you still sin, you're still far from perfect. So, like, why wouldn't they? Yeah, you even even if it's unintentionally, sometimes like they're still human, you know what I mean? But like, I feel like a lot of people just put all their trust on, it's easier to put it all on the human who has this title than to put it on God. Because when you're leaning on God and following God, you will see no matter if you're a pastor or if you have a role in the church, like you understand like you're still a human. That's right. You know, you're not God. Yeah. And then you have to discern even them and their actions because you know, I I could have good intentions, but I'm still in the flesh.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

I could fall into my own feelings one moment.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

And then accidentally mislead someone or or miss, you know, say something wrong. And I hope that someone would have the discernment to maybe even call me out, like, hey, like that's not good. That's not true.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

And if they love you, they will. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And scripture itself itself says you ought to test everything. Yeah. To test everything.

SPEAKER_07 34:00

And then we see, we see in the church, you know, in in the New Testament, like there are there's accountability built in into elders and leadership and that kind of stuff. And and I I wanted to say, like, the church is so important too. So we're talking about, you know, like, oh, there's false teachers, and that is true. But I do believe that the church, you know, is important. Now, the big seed, the church of Christ, right? Like, we are all one body, but then even in smaller local settings, like there is a place for the church as well to do absolutely life alongside people. But I think that um, I have noticed with this stuff that's been going on with Bethel and these false prophets making stuff up and all that kind of stuff, that like sometimes even in the church, there's this hesitation to call it out publicly. And for me, like, especially like specifically some of the Sean Bowles stuff, like I've seen some of these prophecies that are very clearly and easily like identified that he was, you know, grabbing information online and faking prophecy. Like, we have to call that out. We have a duty to do not just let that stand. And it was so public, it was done so publicly, and and there's these big platforms that these churches have. Like when I see that being done, like I'm not afraid of, oh no, the church is gonna be slandered or the church is gonna look bad. No, that's not the church, that's not part of the church. What he's doing, the Bible says there are clearly, I'm not saying everybody who's ever, you know, messed up or led wrong is a wolf, but there are wolves. There that's literally wolves in the world.

SPEAKER_02 35:42

And that's what we need to wake up to. And that was the point of 1 Kings 13 is wake up. So it would say in 1 Peter, be sober, be awake. The enemy is like a roaring lion circling around you. And that's the problem. If you're if the enemy is a predator, his greatest tool is to camouflage him and tell the and show that the prey and teach the prey that the predator doesn't even exist, that the predator's not even hunting you. And it's this lie of comfortability. It's this lie of like, hey, I'm okay, I'm just live this comfortable life, and I'm just I'm gonna scroll past the uncomfortable videos. I'm gonna scroll past, I'm gonna look past when my pastor's saying some heretical things or some heretical doctrines. I'm I'm not gonna call him out when I see him uh sinning atrociously or lying on God's name.

SPEAKER_07 36:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

That is not love. If you love your leaders, and if your leaders love you, they will call you out, you will call them out. It's iron sharpens iron. When did it become iron attacking Plato? What is going on with this? Like, we are called to be iron sharpening iron. It says in Ephesians that you ought to call these things out, right? Like what's brought from darkness into light becomes light. My question for the church, really, and again, I love the church, and I think everybody, if you can, you must go to church. You must be part of a body. Not for you, but for God, right? And my thing though, that I think every Christian needs to ask themselves is are you a light only on Sunday? Are you only a light on Sunday? Like, do you only turn on your Christianhood on Sunday when you're around other Christians and the and the pastor speaking for 30 minutes, and then as soon as you leave those doors, you just forget who you are as a Christian?

SPEAKER_05 37:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

Because if you are only a light one day a week, you are not the light. If you are living in darkness for the other days of the week, what are you doing? You ought to be the light to the world. If you are only a light around other lights, you're not you're just you're just a fan. That's what I was. I was just a fan of Christianity.

SPEAKER_07 38:00

And you know what's a catch 22 there is like that's me sometimes, right? That's me sometimes. Yeah. I, you know, I come in and out of seasons where like I'm just locked in with the Lord and it's seven days a week, and I'm just like spending time with him and talking to the grocery store clerk and telling him about Jesus. And then there's other seasons where life is hectic and crazy, and I'm I'm struggling to get to church, and I go and it feels dry, and then I'm distracted. Like that is the reality of my walk. But I think that is why it's so important for us to be doing life alongside other believers so we can encourage and edify and lift each other up because when one is down, this is a great example in marriage. When Karina's like down, almost always like I'm up and I can bring her up. Yeah. And the other way around, when I'm feeling down, she can lift me up. It happens all the time. Rarely are we both just down and out together. Um, and so it's so important for us to be with other believers. You know, so the church is love you. Yeah. The church is so far from perfect. And and I kind of want to, you know, with this little segment as we're talking about the church, I think it's important because there are people who don't want to go to church or they don't want to associate with God because they know a Christian who is a hypocrite. They know a Christian who doesn't live this way or that way. The reality is, is like me, me and you were talking about this, Karina, recently, is that like that's the reason I am a Christian is because I know how hypocritical I am, how hypocritical I can be. Wow. The whole point of me walking with Jesus, because I know me. I know the inner parts of Ryan. I know how much I suck. Even today, as I've done so many great things, I've helped a lot of people. My faith in Christ has um caused me to do great things in this world. But even in that, I still fail every single day. I still talk to my kids wrong, or I'm snippy with my wife, or you know, I get angry at the person driving behind me. And that is why I need Jesus so bad. Even just today, yeah, earlier, um, I was like, God, please, just help me walk this life because I've just, you know, the last couple of weeks have been a struggle for me in terms of just being distracted and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

And so yeah, I mean, there's so many distractions in this world, right? And there's so many excuses to not go to church, but none of them are valid. And I'll just say that right now, especially if you have the time and the money and you're able to get your body into that building. It's not about, oh, the it I don't, I I think it's so wrong when people say, Oh, the music isn't right, or I hate it, I didn't like the sermon, or the message didn't hit for me.

unknown 40:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

What are you doing? Is worship for you or is it for God? Right? Like, I think when we talk about going to church, we need to also talk about why people leave church. Why people leave church. Because I think before you leave a room, not just church, before you leave any situation, you should be in constant prayer and saying, Lord, is there anything else that you want me to do here before I leave?

SPEAKER_07 41:11

That's so good.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

Before you quit on the body of Christ, of your local expression, whatever church you're in, before you just quit on them, you should be really in serious prayer. Lord, is there anything else you want me to do here before I leave? Right? Because maybe there's a problem in your church. Maybe you're the solution. Maybe God brought you here. He's opened your eyes to see the problem so that you can come serve the body, right? But maybe you don't want to be the light of the world. You're comfortable in the darkness.

SPEAKER_07 41:42

And here, like, um, as we were talking about, you know, false teachers and wolves and stuff, like when I was like three months into my faith and I was at a church, and there was this very charismatic guy who kind of came into the fold and he was like hanging out at the young adult stuff. And he he sucked me in. Um, and I was so new that like he said he was a Christian, so I was just like, all right. And he ended up like living with me for a couple weeks, and I was like with him like almost every day for like two weeks, and he started like he was talking to this girl that lived in Georgia who was a prophetess, and they were spirit husband and wife, and I just and they were prophets, and I totally got sucked in underneath this lie. And I'm not even kidding, like as at looking back, um, and Karina, you can speak to some of this because you were you were kind of there for some of it, but um, as I look back, like, dude, uh what were they telling? It was almost like cult like behaviors. Like, um, like one of the things was uh she she was in Georgia and then she the Lord told her to go to New York. And then this guy was living with me, and one day he wakes up, he's like, Hey, I think God's telling me that he wants me to use your car to go pick her up. And I'm just like, okay. Again, like I was about two weeks into this, like he was living with me, and I was just very influenced. Yeah, I didn't understand, like I'm telling you, like, I can totally understand how people can fall into cults.

SPEAKER_00 43:17

Well, when you're you know when you're a new believer, you're on fire, you're very vulnerable. Yeah, you're very vulnerable.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

Like everything sounds spiritual and God-driven, especially if they're super like yeah, they got that charismatic aura to them, and you're like, oh wow, I shouldn't be like in.

SPEAKER_07 43:30

We'll get this part of our story, like uh you know, part of our story, God showed me that Karina was gonna be my wife, right? So this all took place around that time. I had told Karina, I had said, Hey, I think that maybe you're gonna be my wife. And she was started praying.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

And I think you had I haven't like I was still praying and asking God, but we were like, I was open to it. But it's like, I don't know yet. Let me pray about it, let me see.

SPEAKER_07 43:55

Okay, and there's a lot of backstory. So if you know what's really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

I want to pause you right there because that you said something really interesting. You're basically saying that God was speaking to you. He really was, but at the same time, the enemy is speaking to you. Oh, yeah. You see, that's scriptural, right? Yeah. And you really do need to be like, I always say, like, you got to be like a pharmacist with this. Like when someone says, hey, God spoke to me and He tells me, He told me you he wants you to do these things, blah blah dah, dah, dah, thus says the Lord, I say, show me the scripts. Show me where that aligns scripturally, right? But what you said is very interesting. And I think that we see that in scripture. In Proverbs, it says the lady of wisdom is yelling on the street. Like God is trying to speak to you and give you this wisdom. But at the same time, Proverbs uses the symbol of an adulterous woman. It's saying sweet honey into your ears of lies and comfortability. And we see that again when I said in 1 Peter, right? Like where the enemy is like a roaring line. So the enemy is loud. God is also speaking. So of course, when God is speaking to you, of course, the enemy is also going to be trying to attack you and saying all these false things. So you must test everything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 45:04

So I'm going to finish this. Please go. Yeah, yeah. So he goes, gets her, brings her back. And so she's now, she stayed with us for two days. Guess what? One of the first words she told me from the Lord. Yeah. Well, she was, dude, I'm telling you, she was praying over me. And it was, I guess, had the chills. She says, Oh, he, that woman is not your wife. Karina was not my wife anymore. That's what God was saying. And I found out that in New York, she had prophesied to this girl that she was going to pass away. And so she comes and she's got a laptop. She's got a new wardrobe. She has, she took this girl's stuff away. So she comes and she's like, Yeah, the Lord told me this girl's gonna pass away and this and that. And so she got a laptop, all this stuff. Then she's telling me that Karina's not my wife. So then the next big thing is that we I was moving out of the house that I was in, and we stayed in a homeless shelter one night. And then the next night we stayed in my car, and then they got a word from the Lord. And it was, Hey, I think we're supposed to take your car. Oh. So they took me back to my hometown, which is two hours. They took me back to my hometown, which was two hours away, and they dropped me off. And this is it, and and so they dropped me off, and they come back to to the area where we're we're at now with my car. Wow. And then and so me and Karina, I had kind of told her at this point, like I was like, Yeah, I don't know if we're still.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

I almost ended things with him because I'm like, I'm not gonna be another girl that you're gonna change your mind back and forth.

SPEAKER_07 46:47

And I remember you had a conversation.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

He goes, Hey, I I talked to this guy, the prophet guy and his wife, and they're telling me you might, you might not, you're not the one. So let me just let me just take it to God. I don't know. It's crazy, and now I'm like, okay, forget this. I'm done asking God, you made it clear. Because before he was very back and forth about girls. Yes. I'm like, no way. I need to.

SPEAKER_07 47:10

If you heard my story and her story, you get it.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

Going to play this game, you don't even have to ask God anymore. We're done. Like, I'm not even going to entertain this idea.

SPEAKER_07 47:18

So I think that was for about like two days, two or three days. So then I go back, I get dropped off. And so Karina would have been in our hometown. I went back there, get dropped off, they take my car. And it was so they actually took your car.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Actually, they dropped him off at his dad's and took off as dad.

SPEAKER_07 47:33

And so, so anyway, so I I call and I talk to Karina. We were still in communication. I'm like, Yeah, they just dropped me off. And she goes, Ryan, what are you doing? Dude, it's like the scales fell off my eyes. The second I wasn't with them. I go, Oh my gosh. But before he came back, it's like, what did I just do?

SPEAKER_00 47:51

I was I was literally reading my Bible because I was in this like fasting asking God about if he was even it.

SPEAKER_03 47:58

Come on, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

And I opened my Bible and I'm reading about false prophets. Come on. And then he calls me and he goes, Oh, he just told me the Lord told me to give my car and da da da. And then he, and then this is the first time I'm hearing about his spiritual wife, and she took all these things, and and I'm like, and I just read about false prophets, and I'm like, Ryan, this is a false prophet. And he's like, Oh my gosh. And like just like it was, and I'm telling you, that's insane.

SPEAKER_07 48:24

There was a spiritual thing to it. Another thing, I had started writing music when I got saved. I was saved for a couple months. The whole time, this dude actually rapped as well. Yeah. The whole time for the guy, yeah, he was also a rapper, which was part of the connection, like, oh dude, God's put us together. The whole time we were together, I couldn't write. It's like I had writers blocked. Dang. The second that we broke that I was away from him, I started writing again. And and so, anyway, so many things like that where the Lord just made it very clear like, um, this was not of me. So I end long story, I'm not gonna get into all the details. Maybe that's for another time, but I ended up getting my car back. I had to go back to where they were, and and it took a while and it took a lot. But like the point of that is to say literally two weeks later, I was in another conversation with someone while I was actively trying to get my car back from this other person. And he was staying the night with one of my friends, and he was telling us, like, the church that I went to, he the pastor was paralyzed, and I was staying the night, and it was just me and this guy one night, and he's saying similar things as this other guy. And he said, Yeah, like the Lord's showing me, I'm gonna heal the pastor and I'm gonna take over. This was all over the church. This was all in a matter of two weeks' span. And luckily, I was smart enough. I go, because he was trying to reel people in. He was in the group and he would go to the small groups, but he was always in an argument with people, talking about theology and that God's not really saying that. You may have met someone like that, yeah, really divisive. So, within a matter of two weeks, I met two people who were just total, like, like from what I can tell, wolves within the church. And so I say all of that to say, like, maybe in a church, you can be a seasoned uh believer who could help someone who's young in their faith. Yeah, there's all kinds of different roles you can play. Like right now, I could play that. Like I'm 13 years in my faith. I would never fall for something like that. Like I'm so far past that. But in the moment, two months in, and so as we're thinking about what does it mean to be part of the church? You know, you're saying, like, what does God want you to do? And so those are questions you can ask as you're like, what does it mean for me to have a role in my church?

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Like, you know, I'm gonna say the enemy can also work in churches. I don't know. I think there's like, as I've heard from worldly friends, like, well, one, they think if you're a Christian, you're perfect. Like only perfect people can go to church, so therefore they can't go because they're not those kind of people. But it's like the church is full of broken people.

SPEAKER_02 51:00

The church is for the sick.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

It's yeah, it's like, it's like we are there because we acknowledge that we are far from perfect and we need help. Like we, we know we need something greater than us, uh, versus people who don't go to church, they're technically like playing God themselves and they're doing everything on their own, they're handling things on their own. But like we're like, we can't do it. We need something bigger. But the enemy, I've seen the enemy work in churches too. You know, he's he's there active too. So that's why I said it's like we we can't think that this church is like, oh, like no one's gonna hurt us here. It's like, I mean, there are people there who are broken who are struggling with things, but there's also people with intentions, like legitimate intentions to harm the church and bring down people, you know what I mean, with the wrong agenda. So it's and I like how you brought up kings because like I think that so many Christians, and I was one of them who like you think the Bible is just stuff that applied back then. And I like how you said that it like God left us with this manual that helps us with even times now. Like that stuff still happens. It does, it's still active, it's still going on, and you went through it. I know I've been church hurt. Um, but yeah, I love how you mentioned that because it's still alive now, like it was before.

SPEAKER_02 52:15

And I and I'll tell you, like, and I know we're saying all these things, and I well, I'm not trying to discourage anyone from going to church, but the reality is, the reality is you should go to church. There are wolves in sheep's clothing. And if we just continue to put our blinders on and we don't call out these wolves, then you have to think, you have to worry about the flock, right? And that's where I always say, like it says scripturally, it's it's literally says, do not cease meeting. Like, don't stop meeting like some people have. We are called if you are Christian, if you are Christian and you truly believe that that is the word of God, the word of God is calling you to continue to meet with one another, sharpen each other with love and fellowship. And just like we were talking about earlier, love includes saying the hard things, right? That's what real love is. Yes. So, yes, the church is full of broken people, the world is full of broken people. But what we do when we go to church is we are uniting under one common purpose, and that purpose is the cross.

SPEAKER_05 53:25

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 53:26

It's the same thing that healed you, whether you're a 13-year theologian or you're only 13 years old. It doesn't matter. God saves and God can speak through any one of those people, even if you've only been baptized a year ago, right? Yeah, like I think that a lot of people sometimes they're afraid of going to church. And I've heard this a lot. They hear stories of church hurt, and they're like, Well, I don't want to, you know, get hurt and something like that, or have faith. God will equip you. And maybe you are called to go there to be the light, right? It's sad that we have so many churches that need real Christians to be the light there. But don't give up. Do not stop giving up. 1 John 5. Yeah, it says John in John 1.5 says that God is the light and he has overcome the darkness. See, in Timothy, it says that fear and anxiety is not of God, but instead he's giving you a power of self-control and power, not fear and anxiety. And I think that when we remember that, we can actually enact that and be the light together, not living in fear, but when we see our brothers and sisters living in fear, we can say, Hey Ryan, I think you're operating out of anxiety right now. Let's talk one-on-one. I want to edify you, I want to lift you up, and and we can challenge each other, we can grow together. And this community, this network that all is there just for one purpose, and that's to glorify Christ. There is nothing more beautiful on this earth than that.

SPEAKER_07 55:02

Hey, it's Ryan, and I hope that you are enjoying this episode so far. I wanted to quickly let you know that we are a nonprofit podcast that is made possible in large part by donations. If this is a podcast that has encouraged you and you feel led to help support, you can head over to lifeusd.com/slash donate or check the episode description for a direct link to our giving page. Whether it's a one-time donation or monthly support, every gift given helps us continue to tell real stories that point people back to our living God.

SPEAKER_00 55:34

Okay, so Daniel, so I like, okay, I like how you brought all this stuff up because so now you have um, well, one, you have military training. You So you could like beat me up. You're going.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

I don't know about that. Oh, get real. Come on.

SPEAKER_00 55:48

You have like, you're you're about to go to law school. So you have these like um skills on like justice and all the stuff, what's right and wrong. And then now you have a legitimate, like personal reason to demand justice. Um, you know what I mean? And then now you're dealing with like the spiritual her, like the church hurt. Like, yeah, like I feel like every every category has like failed you, and you have every reason technically, right? Like to be angry, to be like everything's failed you. And you, you, you are more able and capable of being like, no, I'm gonna pursue law with this like angry heart now, you know, from every because you're failed in all these areas. So how did you how are you able to like overcome your own understanding, your own feelings, and overcome like all the hurt from all these areas and still listen to this still voice and God through all that and still pursue this path with like a good heart?

SPEAKER_02 56:51

Yeah, wow, that's a great question. I think um I would like to tell you, oh yeah, like I just prayed and all my hatred and anger went away, but that's not the case. You know, my hatred festered for five years. For five years it festered and it grew and it multiplied. When the church split, it split because of what happened to my sister. Because people felt like, so basically what happened was my head pastor said, We need to call out sin, right? We need to call out a wolf in sheep's clothing, and we need to do it with love and dignity and respect, but we do need to protect the flock, right? Other people were afraid that it would gain press. People were afraid, like, hey, we're just getting our numbers up there. Do we really want to do this? And they fired the head pastor. When they fired him, I said, I'm out too. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_07 57:39

Okay, man, calm down.

SPEAKER_02 57:41

And and I left in anger, and that was wrong. I left in anger. And when I left, the youth kids stopped going too. They started basically boycotting and saying, Well, we're not gonna go either. And then when they stopped going, then their parents stopped going and the church split. And my hatred festered so much that if you knew me, you also hated that individual. And if you didn't hate that individual as much as I hated that individual, well, then we ain't talking. And we better not be talking, you know? And it got to the point where people who never even met this individual, people who barely even know my sister, hated this individual just out of loyalty to me.

SPEAKER_07 58:25

Did you talk about it a lot?

SPEAKER_02 58:26

Or is that how they knew, or or how does that look? It wasn't something that I would brag about, like, oh my oh, this is what happened to my sister, but it was the fruit of what happened was so evident of like our our church was completely fractured. So what happened was um we still needed a place to meet. So my wife and I opened up, uh, we we partnered with a great friend and I, Matthew and Shannon. Matthew, if you're watching this, love you, dude. So um, Matthew opened up his house and we just said, Hey, let's just meet. Let's just still worship on Sunday. Come on, just figure this out. Let's, and this is I'm still dealing with all this anger and this hatred. But my friend Matthew and my wife was like, Well, let's just deal with this together. Like, we don't have the answer. We don't know why this is happening, but let's just do this together. Let's just live life together. And then one by one, the the youth kids would say, like, hey, I have nowhere to go. Can I stop by as well? And then that house church grew to like, I think someone said it was like 40 people in attendance, still meeting to this day. And it's so beautiful. But the thing is, my hatred still spread. So those people that were coming there, they were looking for the Lord, but they also got some of my hatred along with it. Because you had to ask, like, wow, why are we meeting in someone's basement? You know, it's because uh the church that we were at fractured completely. Um, that's how that story spread, right? And then that's when um the military called me to move to Nebraska, and I continued my my journey as a prosecutor. And to be honest, that hatred fueled me for a long time. I chose to let my rage and my anger uh fuel me. That was my source of joy, that was my source of pride. When I had a case in front of me, I I felt like I was gypped from justice. So I made it a personal vendetta to make sure that justice would be served properly. And so I would work tirelessly. And I almost became like a maniac. Like I would stay at the office until like 9 p.m. I would get there at like six, and it'd be go six to nine, and the government's not paying you overtime. Wow. That's not what they're doing, right? And it's because I, every time I kept seeing my sister, and I said, Well, someone has to get justice for this person, and I'm not gonna quit on this case. I'm gonna work hard, I'm gonna work hard, I'm gonna work hard. I was trying to do it all on my own and all on my own strength, um, all the while fueled by this hatred, right? And so that leads me to that moment at church where I felt like the Lord was saying, let my people go. And you know what's so funny is everybody thinks that they're the main character of a story, you know? And I was like, Oh, I must be Moses, you know, like who's this? And I was, I remember literally saying to the Lord, Who is this pharaoh? Like, if that's all that it takes to take down a pharaoh to get close to you, bring him before me and I'll deliver you his head. Like that's how bold and angry I was. I was like, if that I was so amazed because it was one of the first times that I actually felt like I heard the voice of the Lord and him say, Let my people go, that I was so like, Yes, okay, God is real. I want a real relationship with you. Who must I who must I, you know, get rid of? Like, who is this pharaoh that is holding your people back? And then when I was on that phone call with my friend and we're talking about unforgiveness, it hit me. I was the Pharaoh. I was the one that hardened the hearts of so many people that they had this hatred and this anger in their heart that I know that was keeping them back from truly worshiping the Lord with all of their heart. Right? And so I'm going through this whole crisis on my own, and I'm not telling my wife, I'm not telling anybody. She knows, and for five years, we never even mentioned that guy's name in our house. Because she knows that if his name got brought up, literally for the whole week, I'd be thrown in a blind rage. And I'm not even joking. It'd be a blind rage where I couldn't even talk. I'd be just so mad. Um, so for five years, we never even spoke his name or of the incident. You know, while it fueled me, I never spoke about it. That's what sin likes to do, I think. I think sin likes to find a comfortable spot in your heart and it wants to make itself seem useful and it doesn't want you to talk about it. It doesn't want you to bring it into light. Um and so yeah, it was, I didn't know what to do. I felt like God was calling me the Pharaoh, and I felt like I understood why. But I said, God, I am extra dumb, so you gotta be extra loud. If you want me, if if you want me to forgive this person, and I was I was very mad at this point. I was like, if you want me to forgive this person, you need to be extra loud because you were asking me to do something impossible, you know? And then I get in the car and I'm going to pick up my wife and we're gonna go meet at our church group. And all the while in my head, I'm just going back and forth in my head, like, and I'm saying, Lord, you gotta be super loud to me right now. And I pick up my wife and I ask her, like just on autopilot mode, how was your day? And she's not answering. And I'm like, babe, how's your day? Are you okay? And she's like, I feel convicted by the Holy Spirit to tell you something. And she she had never said something like that to me before.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:51

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:51

And I'm driving and I'm like going through my mind, I'm like, I did the dishes, I took the I took the dog out. Like, I what what what did I do wrong? You know, what is going on? Tell me something. Yeah. I'm like, what did I do? Um but she says, I don't know why, but I need to tell you this. And I I know that the Holy Spirit is convicting me to tell you this. And I'm driving and I'm like, okay, like, what is it? You need to forgive him. That's what she said. She said, You need to forgive him and called him by name. Yeah. And I almost crashed. I was like, whoa, like, who told you? And that's what I asked, who told you what was and I almost got like offended. I was like, who who told you? Because the only person that knew that I was going through this crisis in my head, or even got the word, let my people go, was me and God. And I was like, who told you this? He did. Yeah. That's what she was just like, I'm just telling you what I believe the Lord has called you to do. And again, if someone says that the Lord is calling you to do something, you should test that with scripture.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:57

It's funny because I literally just went over Matthew 18 with a friend right before that conversation. This is all within that day.

unknown 1:05:04

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:04

And even then, I said, Lord, you I am extra dumb. So you got to be extra loud. But I'm like, honey, we got to put a pin on that because I can't even tell you what's going on in my head right now. We go to our church group and we're a little late, and I pull in, and and we're a little late, and someone says, Hey Daniel, can you teach us about forgiveness? And I'm like, oh Lord, what is happening right now? I turn around, I go outside, and I immediately start looking at flights. And I said, Fine, Lord. I I said I would, so I will. Like, I will go back to um Colorado where this place, where the all this event happened, all the people are still at. I will go back and I will find a way to forgive this person in person. I'll do everything in my power. And I look at flights and Nebraska to Colorado, I think that's like what like an eight hour drive. Yeah. Right? You guys have made that drive before. Yeah. But the flights are so weird. Like the flight was like six, seven hundred dollars. And I was like, Were you jumping all over the country or what? Well, like I was just trying to drive, I was just trying to fly from Omaha to Denver, but it was like six, seven hundred dollars. And I was like, I see, well, Lord, um, maybe you don't want me to forgive him right away. Because I was like, I was ready to fly the next day, and I was like, Well, maybe you don't want me to fly right away, maybe maybe in a month or two. And then I stopped right there and I said, Lord, and I was like, Lord, if you want me to forgive him, I know you'll make a way. I'm willing to go. I don't care the cost. Like, I'll go. And I refreshed my my thing, and it was like a flight there and back for $99. And I was like, all right, well, here I go. Dude. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:41

So I want to, I want to, I want to touch on that. Um, because part of part of our thing is we're telling real stories that point to a living God. And and I love that because you can't make that up. Yeah. That doesn't just happen. It's not coincidence. All of those things together, right? Like maybe one of those things is like, oh wow, that's crazy. Yeah. But like God is still working, He's still moving. He is. And that's that's like what we want to highlight for people who maybe, you know, have a hard time believing or whatever it is. It's like there are millions of people who have stories similar to yours, like ours, like people who experience and see God is moving. There's something deeper in this world than just what you see and what you can touch. Right. And I that's what I love about that. Like that, that is so many things line up in one day. That's what I'm telling you.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:36

Incredible. I always say this to people because I, you know, I have my own platform where I'll do online debates or I'll talk about scripture and and do biblical teachings. Man, like every time I always get asked, like, what's the proof? What's the evidence for God? And I'm like, what proof do you want? Like, truly, what kind of proof are you asking for? Because I could tell you the perfect theological answer. I could tell you the historosity behind the Bible itself, that the document itself testifies that it's written over three languages over 40 different authors, and there's more theological consistencies in this book than any other book in the world. Or I could tell you why I actually believe in the living God. And the reason is because I meet him daily.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:23

Because I know him. And that's the thing. Like, people say, What's your testimony? I say, which one? Yeah. Like, I will test every single day is a testimony unto him. You know, like nature itself testifies to his greatness. But we're just so like hard, like hard-hearted with like scales on our eyes that we choose not to believe in God just because he's not answering in the exact way that we want him to.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:52

Yeah, and I think so much of that, um, not seeing that God's real or whatever, it it truly comes from keeping ourselves distracted, just being, you know, just focused in our the cares of the world. The Bible talks about like store your treasures up in heaven, not on earth, because like, and we chase all of these worldly things. I had I started practicing silence and solitude. It was a few months ago. Um, and I did a six-hour retreat, and I went in a deer stand for six hours, and I just laid there in the deer stand. It was like six hours you're just not on your phone, no phone, nothing. Just kind of lay in there. And it was so crazy. At one point, like I had my eyes closed, and then they slowly opened, and the sun was coming through, and I had just got done crying about something. Krino, you're always talking about how I cry all the time. She's always like crying as a gift. Yes. Yeah. So the Lord had done something, you know, or spoke to me, and I was kind of tearing up. And my eyes are watery, and the sun is coming through. Like, you know, when you open your eyes just a little bit. And I sat there, I'm not even kidding, for like 30 minutes in all of it was like I was looking through a kaleidoscope. Because the sun was coming through and the and the water was like messing with the light and the fragments. And and I, and it just made me realize how much I miss of the beauty of this world. Come on. Because I'm so focused on the quote unquote beauty that is man-made. You know, we think of our phone as the easiest one. Like there's so much cool lights that come through, but like truly, there's so much beauty in this world, and that beauty so obviously points to God. Are like me sitting here, my eyeball, the way that it works, and my hand, and how I can like send these, you know, these things through my brain. It's absolutely mind-blowing. It so points to the fact that there's a creator. It's you can't deny that. It doesn't make any sense otherwise. But yet we numb ourselves to it because I think also part of it, like you're saying, people want answers and they want to just answer my question. A lot of it is like they just we don't want God. We want to be our own God.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:00

Honestly, I feel like, I feel like you could give, you know, people demand proof, physical stuff. They, but even throughout history in the Bible, like the people who in witness God opened the the sea, they, you know, they forgot all about it. Like, we will forget. Like, even I've talked on on my story where like as the Lord was filling my fuel tank and I'm witnessing it there, there was this like battle between my spirit and my my flesh, where my spirit, I'm crying because I'm feeling the presence. I'm witnessing a miracle, right? But my my flesh and my brain, it's it's out of, it's not capable of like grasping that.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:43

Like that's not logical, like logically possible. Like you can't just make gasoline appear in your tank without putting it in there. And so like my brain was struggling to grasp, and so it was almost trying to disbelieve it, even though it's happening.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:59

And like I'm crying and everything, but but then I still, after it happened and I had gas and I made it home safe, like I still was like, maybe my my gas pump thing is broken. Like I'm still trying to do that. You're still trying to rationalize it. Yes, like because I'm my brain's trying to make it make sense, just like we do with science, so that we're trying to justify it. And if there's no answer, then it's not possible. It's not real. It's just a, it's just a theory, it's just this. And it's like, so I feel like anything is because we, we, we, it's so hard for us to like surrender to ourselves and like die to ourselves. Because if God was real and everything he says is real, then that would mean that everything he says about us, you know what I mean, is real. And we just can't, we can't do that. Like we can't surrender and like die to ourselves and submit to a God, because that's harder than like, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:55

Yeah, I mean crazy. It takes to deny everything and say, like, this interaction, like the ability to move my hands, the beauty of nature, all the amazing things that he's doing in your life every single day, and to deny all of that and say, none of that is from God and deny every single one every single time, that takes way more faith to believe that all of that is absolutely random. Right? I truly believe that God is the author, he is the alpha and the omega, and it makes sense. And I truly also believe in free will that yeah, if you choose to have a hardened heart, it won't if you choose to have a hardened heart and you choose not to listen, he's not gonna force you.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:40

And that's scary. The Bible talks about searing your conscience. Yeah. Something God built into us so that we hardened heart. But the Bible says you can sear that. You can over time, slowly by s slowly but surely, I think of how sin, like how it starts is it's a line in the sand. You're not supposed to cross, but you just cross a little bit. Yeah. So there's a new line, but then to feel some kind of pleasure or or whatever, you got to cross the line again. You always have to cross the line because we're always chasing a new feeling, a new high, a new this or that, whatever it is. And you cross the line little by little, and before you know it, you're way off. And like the Bible says you can sear your conscience, you can choose to continually deny God and deny your conscience, and and but it's uh it leads to death, the Bible says.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:29

It really does, you know. And, you know, even before becoming a lawyer, you know, my lifestyle was leading straight to death for myself, you know? And my hatred and my anger that was spreading to so many people, that was leading to death. And we were talking about wolves and sheep's clothing. You know, I gotta say, like, and when I look at myself in the mirror at the time, that was me. I was so angry, I was so mad, and I was preaching anger, and I was letting that fester and spread to the rest of the community. And that's why it always gets me. When the Lord says that he would leave the 99 for the one, it struck me because I felt like I was the wolf that took the one from the 99, yet he still came for me. It's like the Lord is coming and I'm saying, I don't have your the sheep that you're looking for. I've eaten him, and he's saying, No, I've come for you. And that is a God that I will worship time and time again. I mean, like, there is no other religion like this. I always do this thought exercise when I'm debating someone. I say, Okay, I want you to come up with the best God that you can come up with. Make up a God right now. Come up with the very best God, and he will fall so short to the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible, it says in Genesis chapter 3, when man sinned, that it would produce thorn from the ground, like thorns from the ground would be produced as a result of man's sin. That's the fall of man, right? Our God wore a crown of thorns as his crown on his head when he was on the cross. He wore our sins proudly with joy as his crown because he loves us and he approached the cross with joy because he was excited to have a real relationship with us, to take all of our sin. That is the God worth worshiping. There's no other religion like that.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:27

So powerful. Um, Daniel, I feel like your story with your sister and this this like um justice thing is probably the second story, and it's it's really powerful. And I feel like when I put myself in that situation, so I struggle with pride. I think we all do. I know, I know, but I feel like it's something I have to die to over and over, and like the Holy Spirit has to humble me. And anyways, but like like naturally, my instincts, right, is like no justice. Like that's my instinct. And then I have to catch myself, okay, I'm not, I'm not, I'm walking with Jesus now. But it that's my instinct.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:05

Right, so like soft.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:07

So, like, besides your story, I'm gonna share a little bit about my my my sister, my oldest sister. So I shared about my dad's story how like he, you know, he was in his deathbed, and so something I didn't touch on is like he had done stuff to my sister. Um, you know, there's a lot of emotional abuse, all that physical abuse, just stuff like that. She had every reason, I mean, legitimate, every reason to be like, you are just a horrible person. Right. And I'm sure before he was in this deathbed, I mean, she shares how she's had she had to go through like hell. I mean, um, because instead of him facing his the reality, he made up a whole story to clear his name.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:52

And then we had family members, his siblings turning their back on her, and you were like he's a victim, you're the bad person. And it was a small town, so so everybody just knew about it. And she had a walk for years, yeah, her name being dragged, right? Seen as this like horrible person, right? And so she had every right to be like justice, you know what I mean? Like this is wrong. But she kept trusting in the Lord and like trusting that his like his timing and he will take care of, take care of it, right? Yes, like he will reveal the truth one day, right? Not knowing if it's like in her lifetime or when she passes, you know, she doesn't know when, but she had to just give it to God and live with persecution every day. And like, um and I feel like like for me, like for me, it's like, no, I want to do justice now because it needs to be settled. But like when you think about God's justice, it just it's because I saw it and I'll explain it, but like he just makes it work for for everyone. Like he he just does it so beautifully. And if I took matters into my hands, it'd be like done with them. And then this person could have gone, you know, to hell, or they could have been like, I just feel like both parties are gonna be hurt and end up in a bad place, right? If I did justice my way, but I'm gonna talk about this. Like, my sister trusted God, gave it to him. And when my dad was in his deathbed, and and he's technically paying the consequences, like he's you know what I mean? He he's there because of him, right? My sister shows up to the hospital, she walks in, she's the first one to walk in. He sees her and starts bawling. And all he could say is, I'm so sorry. Yeah, you know, and because of her trusting God and not demanding like justice to be done like this on my timing and trusting him, like my dad had an opportunity to like ask forgiveness, surrender to Christ, and give his life to Christ right on his deathbed. Yeah, because of God's timing and God's just like his his way of judgment, you know what I mean? But she waited and she trusted and she was patient.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:12

That's faith.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:12

But if she would have done it her way, you know what I mean? The outcome would have been just exactly differently and horrible for both people. You know what I mean? We're terrible judges, but because she gave it to the ultimate judge, it was done beautifully, like perfectly, perfect timing. You know, I my my father, I believe he gave his life to to the Lord because he was crying out for him and he was repenting. And then and then my sister was able to have this closure, and it was just done perfectly. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:43

Wow. That's and and I think that's so powerful, and that's why it's so important for us to have faith. That's what faith is faith in his character, even when we don't understand it. You know, it reminds me of Abraham and Isaac, right? Because Abraham wanted this son, Isaac, so bad. That's he it was the one thing he just wanted over and over and over again. And God finally blessed him with a son, Isaac. And then God said, Sacrifice him. Sacrifice your son. Abraham had faith in God. He knew that God knew how much Isaac meant to him, but he had faith in God's character and his plan. Now he would even say in scripture that Abraham really thought that God wanted him to kill Isaac, because we know in scripture that he stops him at the last minute. But it in scripture it also says that Abraham really thought that God was going to allow, you know, Isaac to be killed by him. And so he's going up that mountain with that mentality and that thought process of, you know what, like God knows how much he means to me. God knows how much my son means to me. And I don't know if he's gonna save him, I don't know what he's gonna do. I think he's actually gonna let this go all the way through. But I do know that even if I don't understand it in my lifetime, I have faith in his plan that it will be used for his glory in whatever way. And of course, God intervened and saved it. And because of Abraham's story, it rippled for generations. It's called like the pebble effect. Like you don't know what actions will have a crazy impact down the road. You might not even see it in your lifetime, right? You don't know. And that's why when we say, Why are bad things happening to good people? We ask that all the time. And sometimes the answer is, I don't know. Sometimes when you see your brother or sister in pain, the answer is not to go up to them and say, Well, theologically, this is why you're you're sick or whatever. Sometimes the answer is to just hurt with them, point them back to the faith and the character of God that He is a good, loving father. So my mom last year, late last year, she was diagnosed with cancer. And of all the people I know in my life, she is probably the most faithful warrior for God. And I woke up feeling similar, a rage, a rage that I had only felt since the time that I that I forgave that person, right? And I was like, God, why? She is the one person that's been faithful to you. Why her? Why your beloved daughter? And I was so mad because that was my mom. You know, I love my moms, and so I call her and I say, Mom, like, I and I I barely could get words out of my mouth. And I said, Mom, like, how are you doing? And she's such a funny, like, joyful person. She's like, I'm fine, you know, I just had breakfast, I'm good. And I'm like, mom, like, and I got frustrated. I said, Mom, why are you not mad? I even I was like, mom, why are you not mad? You should be upset. Why are you not upset? Why are you not angry right now? You were just diagnosed with cancer. What is going on? And she said, Daniel, if you want me to you want me to get mad at God right now when he blessed me with years of happiness. I got to see you grow up, I got to see, you know, you get married, you have a kid, I got to none of these days were promised to me. Every single day is a blessing. How can I turn my back on a God that's protected me for all of these years for one moment of pain? And so she said, when this cancer progresses to stage two, I will praise God that it's not stage three. And so the cancer did progress. And she said, and then I asked her again, and she said, Daniel, when this cancer progresses to stage three, I will thank God that I'm not dead. And when I am on my deathbed, I will praise God that I get an opportunity to meet him.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:09

And uh and that's powerful. And so I was praying for healing, praying for healing, and my heart got healed. Isn't that crazy? And yeah, God He He's healing her right now. Thankfully, we had an amazing team of doctors that you know were able to surgically remove it and we're waiting to see if if that's it. But at the end of the day, like I was praying for healing of my mom, not even knowing that it was healing me.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:38

I love that heavenly perspective that she has. There is just something about heaven that just like gets me so excited. Because, like, dude, I'm 35 and I feel like I blinked and I was, I feel like yesterday I was 10. I still feel like I'm 10. Yeah. Still feeling that good. Yeah. So I'm just not my knees though, but yeah. I'm just like, dude, this life passes so fast. There is no stopping it. The Bible talks about that in Ecclesiastes. It's a it's a vapor here today, gone tomorrow. Like, I'm starting to realize, like, okay, I'm gonna blink and I'm gonna be on my deathbed. This is just a blip in eternity. There's so much more. And that's where I think we live, like you were talking about the tutorial, right? When we started, like we're supposed to live this life to glorify Christ and to point people to him and be like, come with us in this. Like, it's you know, you don't I I don't believe that it's like, oh, I want to be saved just so I don't have to go to hell. Yeah. Like I believe when we fully understand and grasp what Jesus did for us, we we have this faith in him. And like we get to live this life with joy, even through the pain, as we're talking about a lot of pain. There's still joy, and he gives us, and it doesn't make sense. The Bible in Philippians 4, 6 and 7 talks about, you know, the the uh peace that doesn't make any sense, it surpasses all understanding because circumstances can be the same, and yet we can have this joy here in this life. So this life is part of like we can really live with purpose and joy, but ultimately we're here for eternity. Yeah, because you're gonna snap your fingers and you're gonna be on your deathbed. Right. One of the powerful moments, Karina, was you know, your dad, we have Uriah, and then your dad, or did your dad pass away first? I forget.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:28

Um, he was born then a week later, he passed away. Yes.

SPEAKER_07 1:27:30

So Krina's seeing life come in, and then she's holding her the hand of her dad. So she's holding the hand of Uriah and her dad. So just like that, life and death. Wow. And your mom's heavenly perspective to understand there's so much more to this life than just this 80 years if we're lucky.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:49

You know what's crazy is if you ask for that heavenly perspective, he'll give it freely and openly. He invites you in Proverbs, he says, just ask. Wiz it says that wisdom will guard. Your heart. Wisdom will enter your heart. That's if you just but ask, right? Like the heart is deceitful above all things, it says in Jeremiah, and it's constantly under attack. My heart was attacked when I heard my mom had cancer. My heart was attacked when I heard that my sister was assaulted multiple times by the person that I loved, right? But when you ask God for wisdom, he will give it to you. And you will see that heavenly perspective and you will see He will, He will, uh He will teach you why and what and what's going on. And that's that faith. And that's that's exactly what we're talking about when it's like just lean on Him, not your own understanding. Yeah. Lean on Him. And just like you're saying, what we do oftentimes is we treat Jesus like an insurance policy. That's not how this life is supposed to be lived. You don't go to church just to check a box and say, I went to church, so I must be good in his books. You go to church because you are excited to go to his house. You live with Jesus, not for an insurance policy, but because you are actually embracing the living God who is walking this journey with you as you take up your cross daily, not just weekly on a Sunday.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:17

Right? Like it's a relationship that is meant to be fully lived. You should be able to testify every single day of his goodness and his glory, right? And it's okay if if you're in a rut, but it's not okay to do that by yourself without him.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:34

So, Daniel, I love how like you're, you know, you're a perfect example of someone who has his eyes on the cross because like you're over here doing life, right? You're not judging. That's awesome, yeah. Where you're like the prosecutor, and but I love that your faith is not on that worldly judge. Your faith is like on the ultimate judge.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:57

Like even if that judge who is worldly and fleshly, like we are, if they fail, you know, and let's say they they let the wrong person go and they keep the wrong person captive, like you're just like, your faith is in God. Like, well, I know this will be taken care of.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:14

Because that's the judge that served our sentence. Yeah. What other judge did that?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:21

That makes him the most qualified of any being that could ever walk in existence. Is that's the judge that delivered the sentence and he himself said, I'll take it. So you don't have to. Amen. So you just gotta leave that courtroom knowing that you're walking in freedom. It's crazy. That's literally what it means to be saved. Like you're in a courtroom, you know you're guilty, you know you're guilty, but then Jesus looks over and he's your defense attorney. He's like, we just made a plea, plea bargain, and you're like, What? We we just pled guilty? What's going on? And Jesus says, No, I'm taking it all. I'm serving your sentence. Now you have an option right there. You can leave that courtroom and in disbelief and be like, No, um, I don't believe what my attorney was saying. I don't believe in Jesus, I don't believe what he was saying. And you can live like you're running from the law, thinking every minute of the day the cops are actually gonna go get me, or you can walk in freedom and say, No, I understand the sacrifice that Jesus just paid, and I will live every day in that freedom. That's what Christianity is. It's not a chore list, it's freedom.

SPEAKER_07 1:31:30

So, Daniel, I want you to paint that final picture where you met up. Yeah, you're gonna meet with them and fly out. You got that $99 flight? Yeah, I got that $99 flight. That's odd.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:41

God's good. Um, and so I go down and um I don't really tell anybody what's going on. I just tell everyone, like I I texted all the elders of the church that has since broken, text all the elders, and I text Matthew and a couple of my close friends and my sister and my family, and I say, Hey, I'm coming into town. I know it's last minute, but can we just all gather at the house? And can we just all meet real quick? I'll explain when we get there. And they all dropped everything they were doing, and they all assembled at this house. And I bring bread and wine, and I say, guys, I need to repent to you. I need to be honest. I've been holding anger and hatred, and I have been spreading it to you all. And that's not right. And I need to tell you guys all right now that it says scripturally that we ought to reconcile with our brothers before we come and take communion. And we get we ought to reconcile with the sins in our life before we do this. And I have not been able to take communion properly my entire Christian life. And I was going to die in sickness, of starvation from the body and the blood of Christ, because I would not bow to the cross. Because I knew that the cross meant that I had to forgive. The cross meant that his me accepting that his idea of justice was better than my idea of justice and submitting to that and walking in obedience. And I realized that that's what I was not doing. I was in open defiance of the Lord's justice. And I told everyone, I was like, guys, I forgive him. I do. My sister immediately just broke down in tears. And she said, Finally, my prayer of five years has been answered. She had been praying every day for five years for me to be healed. She did not give up. And in that moment, it was answered. And in that moment, I saw my dad, who never admits that he's wrong. Love you, but he never admits he's wrong. He said that he needed to repent. And then one by one, all throughout the room, they were there was repentance. Things that you cannot manufacture. Repentance, people saying, I was carrying that same hatred and I don't even know why. I was angry at him. I don't even, and and we're done. I'm done with that anger. And we were able to take communion together. I was able to allow the Lord into that room, and my people were let go. They were let go, they were free. And I um set up a time and a and a and a place to meet with the person, and I completely forgive him. The only reason I'm not saying his name is because I love him. I truly do. And if you're watching this, I truly invite you back into my life. I want to walk with you. I don't want you to walk with shame. Um, and I I tried to set up a meeting and I had I had ways to get in contact with him. So I had people close to him that were watching him. Um, because in my anger, I would always keep tabs, right? Yeah. And so I had ways to get to him. And so I had people talk to him and say, hey, Daniel wants to meet up with you. He actually wants to meet up with you and forgive you. And he will meet any in in any scenario, any way. You can pick the place, you can bring whoever you want. He just wants to tell you that Jesus loves you. And he doesn't, and Daniel does not hold anger against you. And at first he was receptive and he was like, okay, let's meet up, let's do this. And then this is it's funny, we're talking about law and order, not always having that perfect bow, right? Yeah. Um, he didn't show up, you know. And then I get back home, I fly back home, and I still send him this long text saying, Hey, I just want you to know that you're loved. You are loved. You know, Jesus is the answer. And if you would just but repent and turn to him, you will be forgiven. And I forgive you. And he loves you. He forgave you 2,000 years ago, and we can reconcile. You know, I'm offering him a path to reconciliation. Um, I'm not saying like, we'll blink and be best friends, but I wanted him to know that I was actually offering him true discipleship, you know. And when I get back home, I touch down. As soon as I land and I'm with my wife, she's asking me how everything's going and telling her about the breakthrough that happened. I get a text from him. And he twists this whole story of how, you know, and I know I won't paint it, you know, I I don't want to put any shame on him, but basically, he was denying that anything ever happened. He denied it all. When in fact, um, and I know I'm rewinding a little bit, but in fact, when I when we've when this whole thing first happened, our church tried to practice Matthew 18 before it split. So um my pastor met with him one-on-one and said, Hey, what's going on? And he admitted everything. He said, Yes, I've done this all. I've done this, I've done it, I've done it, I've done it. And then he, my pastor tried to set it up one time, and I'm sorry, this is way back, so I'm jumping back. Um, but my pastor tried to set up a meeting with me and him a long time ago. This is right when it's fresh in my heart, and I have anger in my heart. So his family shows up to my house, him and his family show up to my house, and his mom and dad are in tears on their knees because they know what's happened. Yeah. And he's just sitting there with a smug look on his face. And my pastor's like, Well, you tell Daniel what you told us. And he says, Nothing happened. And then my pastor's like, That's not what you just told me. Like, tell me what happened. And he says, Okay, well, yeah, I did it once. You know, I sexually assaulted her once. And then his dad looks up and says, But that's not what you told me. And he says, Okay, I did it maybe twice, maybe three times. And then his mom says, But that's not what you told me. And then he says, I did it more than I I can remember. And he wasn't sorry for it. And um I could tell he wasn't sorry for it, but his parents were begging for forgiveness. And I looked at them and I spat on them. And I said, I guess your whole family doesn't know what no means, no means. So I when I say I don't forgive you, I say I don't forgive you. And if I ever see you near me, it might be the last time you're walking on this earth. So get out of my house. You have five minutes. And they ran out of my house in tears. That is when that hatred just started to fester and grow. So I do have sincere sympathy and compassion. And if you're watching this and you're out there, I completely understand if you might be afraid and you might not think that that was a genuine offer to meet up. That offer will never end as long as I'm alive. You always have a path to reconciliation. Because if Jesus was able to forgive me, man, he can forgive anybody. You know, I've done some terrible things in my life. So that's how that ended. Man. Yeah. Sorry, that's what got me to be like, truly, I recognize Jesus as Lord in my life.

SPEAKER_07 1:38:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:57

Because then I realized I was submitting fully to him as Lord. Because the whole time I was the Lord of my life. You know, I just used him to, you know, fuel my own morality compass. Yeah. But in reality, that was what it meant to bend the knee to him. And that's when I said, now I want to get baptized. Now I understand.

SPEAKER_07 1:39:19

Amen. Yeah. So, Daniel, I know you you have a page where you talk about Christian persecution. You're really shining a lot of a lot of light on that and doing some really good work. And so if someone wanted to find you, where can they go?

SPEAKER_02 1:39:32

So, my handle, I go by Daniel 6.10. It's after the Bible, you know, Daniel chapter 6, verse 10. Um, and the my whole platform is I'm just going for I'm speaking whatever God wants me to speak. Okay. And I really feel like the Lord has been highlighting the persecuted church. I feel like there's not enough people talking about it. And specifically, like I felt convicted because for such a long time, I was the person that would just scroll away when there was uncomfortable news. I'd be like, Yeah, that doesn't make me feel good. So I would scroll away looking for like a funny meme or something like that. But those are our brothers and sisters. They they are our brothers and sisters. If your brother and sister needed help, would you not speak up for them? And I think about my sister, and I'm and I'm thinking about like, man, would I speak up for her if I could have spec spoke up for her earlier? Yeah. Like, and so I and so that's where my heart really breaks for the persecuted church. Um, so yeah, you can find me Daniel 6.10, um, and I spell it all the way out. There's no numbers. And the reason behind that handle, the little lore behind it, is because I want my name to be forgotten. I want scripture to be remembered over my name. So that's why it's Daniel 6.10. It's my favorite verse in the Bible. Um too bad there's no book named Ryan or else I might. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_08 1:40:50

Like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:50

Yeah. But um yeah, thank you guys so much for having me. This has been awesome and honestly, really healing for me. I didn't even know how healing it would be for me to actually talk this out. I think this is the first time I've actually talked. I think maybe this is the first time I actually talked out everything that's happened in one cohesive setting.

SPEAKER_07 1:41:08

One last thing. 90 seconds. 90 seconds. Why you put 90 seconds on a lawyer, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:14

That's hard. Is it hard? I'm gonna just keep talking.

SPEAKER_07 1:41:17

Why should somebody live for Christ? Why should someone live? I'm just gonna. You got it? Ready? And I just want to hear, I I want you to, based on your experience and what you know about God.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:32

Yeah. I can tell you, I can tell you everything's gonna be beautiful and it'll be roses, and I'd be lying to you. It says in Psalm 23 that we will walk through the valley and the shadow and darkness and death, but that his rod and his staff will comfort you. That looks different for every single person. A real relationship with Christ will change your life fundamentally because you will finally be done walking this world on your own. When you let go and you actually let God, you will realize what it means to have a father that truly goes before you and goes after you, paves the way and walks alongside you. I can tell you the theological arguments, I can tell you how it's changed my life, but ultimately scripture says Paul was telling his disciple. Paul said he plants the seed. Apollos, his disciple, watered the seed, but it is God that grows the faith. So, really, 90 seconds, why you should follow God. I say ask him, he'll tell you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:42

Good answer.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:43

Daniel, it was so good to have you on. You got a beautiful family, beautiful story.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:47

Dude, thanks for having me, man. This was a blessing. Yeah. I love all of y'all.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:51

Thank you so much for being part of the Life Upside Down community. I truly hope that you were blessed by our interview with our guest today. Make sure to subscribe and turn on those notifications so you don't miss out on future episodes.